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Thread: A Few Ideas to Help Might Heroes

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    Lightbulb A Few Ideas to Help Might Heroes

    So I've only been playing for a few weeks at this point, getting to know how the mechanics work and such, and I had a few ideas on how to change a few spells to benefit Might heroes to a greater extent than Magic, in order to bring them closer in balance, without actually changing the identity of them.

    1. Lifedrain - One of my favorite spells, even if in its current form, its a clunky heal that does little to help an already weakened stack. I'd love to see it also work from retaliations (with a slightly nerfed base amount to compensate of course), which should naturally be stronger with might heroes since they can have 2 retaliations per round and their already beefier stacks take greater advantage of a spell that scales more with the creatures you place it on than the hero using it. It fits thematically as well, since practically everything retaliates in the same way that it attacks.

    2. Not Being a Part of Initiative - What I mean by this, is that at any given point in a round, the might hero can 'insert' their turn. I notice that all too often, as might, being forced to either go at the very beginning or very end of a round is a major disadvantage (especially in pvp). Either you want to see how the first half of a round resolves before you commit your cooldowns, or you don't want to mark one of your slower stacks as a priority target. The entire theme of might heroes seems to be manipulating your stacks to be as effective as possible, and timing and unpredictability go a long way towards that. With a change like this, where Magic is predictable but versatile, Might would be unpredictable, yet still straight forward. It also has the benefit of giving both roles a more unique interaction with rounds.

    3. Troop Specialization - Allow might heroes to specialize in a specific creature type of their faction to give that creature a unique bonus. For example, maybe the shadow bolt from liches does 10% more damage, Griffons gain 15% resistances for the turn they end soar, the ghouls' dot does 30% more damage, glories gain +1 move distance, vampire life drain is slightly higher and now applies to all targets, etc. Buffs that would be minor enough to not shift might heroes to playing mono-unit comps, but still large enough to change the playstyle of the particular unit. However, I'd think it might be better in most cases to emphasize the strengths of the unit rather than covering existing weaknesses, so that they aren't becoming an uber-unit that no longer has its old weaknesses.

    4. Guaranteed Crit Spell - Might heroes already amass way more luck than magic heroes do, and I figure that this is a spell that would functionally do similar damage to warlord's command on average, but with certain creatures, stats and situations, could be way stronger, while at the same time being less versatile.

    5. Mass Dispel/Indomitable - Might heroes are the chainsaw to the magic heroes' scalpel. While end game magic has 4 turns to do whatever needs to be done to win the fight, might relies on a dominant force. However, when cc gets involved, might tends to flail around until the effects end, while at the same time, not really being able to afford to spend their entire turn dispeling one stack. I had the idea of two faction specific versions of the 'same' spell. Mass Dispel for Haven would do as the name suggests and remove all negative effects from friendly units with a hefty cd to ensure negative effects arn't permanently nullified. Mass Indomitable for Necropolis, however, wouldn't remove existing effects, only make units immune to new effects being applied for 1 turn. I would figure that this one would have a slightly shorter cd than the dispel variant since it doesn't consume your opponents cc cd. On the whole, it gives might an effective, if vulnerable, answer to one of their biggest weaknesses.

    That's all I've thought of for now. Keep in mind that all of these suggestions are separate. If all of these were added together... I'm pretty sure any and all complaints about magic being op would become might being way stronger than magic ever was.

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    Bumping in hopes of feedback.

  3. #3
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    I like point 2 a lot

    Point 3 not so though, i like the idea but this would just make might use 6 of the same units likely (or 1 tank stack and 5 of the same) while i would like to see differences in army setups actualy

  4. #4

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    I agree with Mark Masters with respect to wanting to have armies with greater variation and that 3 would take away from that. I would really like to use mixed armies with different creatures. I would rather see might heroes get a second turn as opposed to your suggestion #2. Suggestion #2 is a good one if we are forced to stay with one turn. As for 4, haven might heroes have the heroism spell which is rather weak and yes I took it but I am really regretting it now. I have been trying to get a magic hero up to level 30 so that I can compare the two classes before I made any suggestions.

    The recent troop renaissance was made mostly to keep magic players in line which hurt knights even more. Then a lot of abilities were changed such that instead of lasting a full 2 rounds (even after the creature has had its turn), they were now turn based. This really hurt the haven knights preemptive strike since it really only lasts 2 rounds now unless you just wait with your higher initiative troops which is not good for a tanking unit blocking a choke point because you want to defend with that unit and use the double retaliation in combination with pre-emptive strike to engage the enemy. I also find the spell costs for the knights abilities are a bit on the high side considering they have lower spirit.

    Having played a magic hero up to level 22, I can honestly say that I don't like the limitation to 5 stacks because this limits your army composition even further and I would actually like to see them with 6 stacks instead of 5 which would mean an increase in stacks for the knight class to 7.

    I learned something today about might heroes that I never really thought of but if you can get one to dk level 100, you can allegedly one shot an opponents stacks in PvP. The creatures were also balanced for PvP. The big issue here is that the developers are trying to balance both PvP and PvE but with more emphasis on PvP so you get an inequality when it comes to PvE since the magic classes have a lot of crowd control. Death knights have an advantage over knights earlier on in the game but I suspect knights are far better mid to late game since their abilities appear to be better. I have not played a death knight but this is what my gut tells me when I look at their abilities. I also agree that life steal would be good if it had a retaliation aspect to it, maybe this could be an upgraded ability available only to the death knight. PvP and PvE need to be separated a bit more and I believe PvP should be more like the forgotten sites which should relieve any of the issues of inequality between higher level players and lower level players. I also believe that the amount of usable scrolls should be limited to 3 - 5 in a PvP match and that heroes should be limited to the mana they start with thus no mana potions are allowed (or at least limited to 1). The only advantage a higher level player would have is that they would could have more abilities available to them which I believe is more than fair since they would be limited in mana. I should also note that I can see how a top level knight could be deadly with one shot hits which is why there hasn't been much work done to balance knights in terms of PvE. PvE is definitely easier when using a magic class and it should be similar for all classes.

    If you read the preamble on the difference between might and magic, it is stated that might rely on their troops and magic rely on their abilities to support their troops and thus get more turns. Because of this, I believe one way to equal the playing field between might and magic would be the following:

    1. At some level knights should gain a passive ability that decreases the cool down on creature abilities within the heroes army by 1 round. Since I am more familiar with a haven knight, I will use blazing glories and archers / marksmen as an example. The blazing glories could retain their 4 round cool down on blind (which makes perfect sense for the magic class) but this would give the knight a bit of an advantage with them and require less stacks of them to be used for crowd control. As for the archers, a knight could use their fire arrows ability each round and the marksmen would be able to volley every 2 rounds. This may seem a bit overpowering but in some cases, the standard ranged attack may do more damage if the target stack has high fire resistance. This ability would make sense because knights are more stringent in the training of their troops and can focus on improving their armies abilities.

    OR

    An alternative to this is to make creature abilities last 1 round longer which would remove the ability to have archers / marksmen to use fire arrows every round but would make the burning effect last another turn. The only problem with this is that it would not affect the volley ability which would mean some creatures abilities may have to be modified to have an added effect.

    2. At some point, the knights should be given a passive ability that provides increased initiative to their troops. Maybe they get +1 initiative to all troops or +2 initiative.

    3. The last one would be to give knights a second turn. This may make them too powerful so I would suggest that one turn be for mana based spells and the other turn be for either shouts (rush or inspired assault), hero attacks (including sundering strike which currently requires mana) or an item such as a scroll or mana potion. Alternatively, LoudMutes idea of the might hero inserting their turn anywhere in the round would be good if might heroes are forced to have only 1 turn.

    4. The mana costs of abilities need to be reworked for the knight. They need to have more abilities that are shouts. Any common abilities with their respective magic class should require mana. In the case of the haven knight, I believe that pre-emptive strike and sundering strike should be shout-like abilities. I believe defiance and heroism should remain as mana based abilities but heroism should maybe be a mass spell or at least have a radius of 1 hex. I am sure something similar can be done with the death knight.

    I also believe that the magic classes have too similar of a might and defence score to the might heroes which give them a further advantage. The knights should be getting a base might or defence score that is at least 1.5 times that of the knight. This would increase creature damage and resistance for might heroes. Alternatively, magic classes should have at least 1.5 times the magic or spirit of the knight. This is why I am trying to get a magic hero to level 30 to verify it for myself but from my experience in coop battles along side clerics, their creatures seem to do less damage than my knight's creatures did but the creatures all had very similar resistances. With those experiences, I believe might scores might be in line but defence scores need to be higher on knights. It is also hard for me to tell as well because I am not taking into consideration what type of artefacts we each had equipped to our heroes.

    When it comes to heroic support, I believe this should be fairly similar between the two classes. And as for luck, I know a lot of people like playing the knight class for higher luck and better criticals but I almost believe this should be a similar score between the classes, after all, luck is luck, both classes can get lucky. Maybe it should be setup such that might heros have 1.25 times more luck than magic heroes and magic heroes have 1.25 times more heroic support on average.

    I know that trying to accomplish these types of averages between the two classes might be next to impossible to program and you will always have some outliers so the next best option might be to apply passive abilities that provide a % increase in specified stats for the different classes at different leveling intervals. I have to admit that an outlier hero could be quite fun to play.

    The other issue that I have between might and magic heroes are reinforcements and healing / re-animate dead. I believe this really needs to be reworked. Magic classes should have access to healing / animate dead for all creatures (core, elite and champion) but only have reinforcements for core & elite. The opposite would be true for Might which would have healing / animate dead for core and elite but reinforcements for core, elite and champion creatures. This could be implemented one of two ways, there is a separate ability for each creature type (core, elite & champion) or the existing abilities could be modified such that the current core healing ability heals both core and elite and the elite healing ability heals only champion creatures. The reinforcements ability would remain as a single ability but would only allow magic heroes to use it on core and elite troops and might heroes can use it on all creatures. I believe this would level the playing field between the two classes a little bit.

    Another suggestion I have in terms of trying to create more diverse army compositions (if this would ever be an objective of the developers) would be to provide added initiative and luck bonuses based on army composition. For example, for every different stack in your army, you gain 0.5 initiative and maybe an extra 5% increase in luck. This might be a bad suggestion but I figured I would throw it out there as I believe a lot of people are using armies with very little troop variation (I know I am with my necromancer).

  5. #5

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    Please do NOT try to make might a magic clone. Second turn is the worst possible way to make them MIGHTY. Don't turn them into magic wannabes. Might heroes take 1 turn to SET the stage. Maybe make the turn stronger with spell buffs... But adding a second turn moves you into the magic category of "adapting". I agree might heroes need a buff. I gave some ideas on a different might vs magic thread. And I think might should get a cd or aoe effect on reinforcements, and NO heal at all. It's more fitting for them to have a power play than a delay and reborn play. I love the idea on helping troop variation though. Might does the blitzkrieg, magic does a crowd control siege. Give them buffs to HELP their specialties, not cover their weakness. That makes the game too boring and 1 sided.

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    Arunalia, giving might a second turn does not turn them into a "magic clone". Traditionally in heroes, both might and magic only had one turn each which could be performed at any time during the round. Giving knights a second turn is just leveling the playing field.

    Completely removing healing from might heroes is a little too extreme and an aoe or cd reinforcements idea would be overpowering if healing remains which I believe it has to. And you need to remember, reinforced troops that are lost in battle that go below the starting quantity die at the end of the battle so multiple uses of it would not prevent troop loss. Do you know how many battles I have been down to just a dozen or less troops? If I hadn't of had healing or regeneration scrolls, I would have lost those battles as well as severely slowing my progress down in the game since I would always be waiting for troops. Allowing knights to heal elite creatures would allow knights to diversify their armies, they could have different creature types. I wouldn't always need to have 2 stacks of inquisitors to heal my elites and champions, I could probably get away with 1 stack and maybe add marksmen or griffins to my army. I would rather promote using different troop types over removing abilities that force the player to use more stacks of a single unit type.

    The blitzkrieg method you describe will work wonders in Heroic Battles, you should be able to lose your entire army in 2-3 rounds with that method. In my opinion, knights don't need crowd control. They need good defence on their troops and a good tank to use at choke points. Knights are more tactical on how they approach battles. You have to be more careful but sometimes knight abilities can be quite rewarding. I have done the blitzkrieg thing and it is really risky after the changes made to troop health and resistances. I have lost entire stacks in one or two shot hits trying to do blitzkrieg type maneuvers. I don't recommend it. I remember reading your post and wanted to reply but couldn't find it again. I remember you had some good ideas but I didn't necessarily agree with the reinforcement suggestions.

    My suggestions for healing abilities / reinforcements come directly from Heroes 6 which was the first ever game in the series where I truly felt that might was equivalent to magic.

    Knights (haven in particular since that is what my experience is with) have great abilities. Double retaliation, pre-emptive strike, defiance, inspired assault are all great abilities. A second turn essentially would allow knights to combine the buffs from those abilities along with others in a single round so in essence, this would be that buff increase you are talking about, just a different way to do it. To be honest, I think it would be extremely fun to have two turns as a knight because you don't have to drag the battles on forever trying to heal stacks at the end of the battle. Since the playable unit changes, the average length of a heroic battle for me has increased by roughly 50%. That can be boring. But we are all different and have different ideas on how to do things and what is boring and what isn't.

    And before anyone comments, yes, I know, heroic battles are not worth it for what they yield but they are addicting for me because of the challenge they present. I have gotten better artefacts doing normal battles in the endgame section in the lightlands / greystone and caverns in Namtaru's claws but still can't resist heroic battles from time to time.

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    I don't try to over compare to other HoMM games since this is a different line. It may hold aspects of the original games, but unless they add necromancy, haven troop training and all those other functions it's pointless to compare it. The strategic specialty of magic is their multiple turns, might have their bonus stack. Digging into the magic speciality makes might become more like a "hybrid" instead of being their speciality troop buffers.

    http://forum.clb.heroes-online.com/t...ll=1#post12504 here is the link to my previous suggestion set.

    Also note, I believe might heroes should focus on reinforcements more than healing due to the speciality of what they do. They overpower an enemy, a mage supposedly outsustains the enemy. By healing. I agree in more difficult battles it is a disadvantage to not be able to heal, but if you had a stronger reinforce, or a second reinforce skill, you could super charge your tank with enough power to defend without any real losses, and retaliate an enemy all the way to hell. It makes more sense than using magical healing for a might hero. An aoe reinforce would help against aoe spells or split pushing by the enemy. It allows the might hero to overpower the enemy with multiple strong stacks, as opposed to magic using 1 strong reinforced stack and just healing up the rest all the time. Also note my suggestions include giving them more strategically sound buffs for a single turn usage. My main goal is to keep might mighty, and magic magical.

  8. #8

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    @MarkMasters
    Point 3 would definitely require some balancing to make it work, and out of all of my suggestions, it would probably take the most effort to balance, both in the sense that it wouldn't make Might over powered, and that it wouldn't force Might players into mono-unit comps. The idea is that by only making strengths stronger, those units still have the same weaknesses, and thus still rely on other units to shore up their weakness. One of the side-goals with this is that it would hopefully make core stacks more viable in end-game.

    @Gravel
    I just have to start off by saying, "Holy crap!" You put alot of effort into this!

    I have to admit, I am totally clueless about the dk levels, so I can't say anything about them. If knights really do get that kind of power though at the highest levels, then thats just a whole other issue entirely.

    I would like to see some kind of knight passive that interacts with creature cooldowns beyond the mostly useless readiness ability. It may need to be balanced according to individual units however, possibly not affecting cc and healing abilities, nor any other abilities that have a maximum number of uses per battle. Instead possibly give them an extra charge to use during drawn out battles, that way this benefits both the blitzkrieg AND defensive styles of Might play.

    For initiative, I think that would be a nightmare on the pvp balance side of things. At the end of the day, even if you are weaker than your opponent, if you can get in the first strike, the fight is heavily in your favor. The way creatures are currently balanced on initiative, in most cases even a +1 will have a dramatic impact on turn order, making ranged glass cannons have their turns before the units designed to get to them..

    For the two turns for might, I just don't like it from a flavor point of view. Obviously the devs are trying to make the two play much differently, and the multi-turn magic is a solid part of their identity at this point. True, its an easier balance fix, and isn't a wrong decision, but I think there are more unique ways to solve the problem that would give Might a stronger identity. It would require that certain shouts get nerfed too, since mixing something like long range, rush, and inspired offense with a spell could make for a truly nightmarish turn, since each buff is now buffing essentially better creatures.

    Lastly, for the mana, I think it is fine. Might's focus is on the mass shout abilities, with a few spells added in as needed. Personally, it just makes me feel like Might needs to focus more on using stacks that can heal, instead of relying on the hero, which is fine.

    @Arunalia

    I like the idea of using aoe reinforcements instead of what they currently have. The only downside I see is that if the reinforcements work the same as they do currently, it would be a no-brainer to do on the first turn, every time, no matter your comp, which isn't interesting. Perhaps, instead it bases the reinforcements on the max stack size instead of current, so that it doesn't lose usability as stacks take damage.

  9. #9

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    If you all want to bring might up to the same level as magic characters we need some serious buffing. New abilities and remade abilities, for both the hero and his troops. All I'm thinking of here is PvE. Since I play might on necro side I'll make an example for that.

    Hero
    1: All damage on abilities significantly increased, improved by might instead of magic stat.
    2: Mana cost removed from all damaging abilities.

    Taunt - now a buff, lasting one round, for example, you place it on your vampire, standing next to nobody, then teleport with him next to 3 monsters and they instantly attack him while he has increased defences. This makes the skill more flexible, instead of having to end your turn next many mobs and then use it you could now "steal" the monsters turn if you have higher initiative, whether or not he should be allowed to act before or after the mobs once he is next to them can be discussed.

    New ability - Bloodlust - Passive ability, grants all troops 5% or 7% life leech vs any type of creature for all troops. (perhaps reduced effect for ranged troops)

    Maiming strike - Now an aoe effect, effect radius 1, stuns all monsters in the area of effect for 2 rounds and deals heavy damage. Mana cost removed, dmg improved by might instead of magic. Still 3 rounds cooldown.

    Creatures - Abilities remade for might side only

    Fate Weavers -
    Statis Web - Now lasts 3 rounds, and has 6 rounds cooldown. (to compensate for lack of CC). As it as currently the ability is a joke, even the blazing glories got a way better ability)

    Skeletal spearmen -
    Bone spikes - Area of effect increased, effect radius 2 instead of 1, and now slows down monsters standing in it when its applied or if passing through.
    Webbed spears, now renamed and remade - Throw ability, knocks the target back 2 or 3 squares if possible, (does not work vs bosses)

    I think the rest of the troops are fine at least as long as they have the life leech passive ability.

    I could add more but this gives you an idea of what I think must be done to put them at even odds with magic characters.

  10. #10

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    Troxny, thanks for putting comments on the death knight, I agree with having a mass life steal ability for them, however shape or form it may come in. As per your comment on the fate weavers, I completely agree, the stasis duration of 1 round is very low BUT their baleful gaze more than makes up for it from a necromancer stand point. I think either giving knights the ability to increase the duration of creatures abilities or reduce their cool down times is the only way the creatures could be "remade" for knights.

    I encourage more people to post their opinions on the might vs magic inequality because the more people that do, the more likely the devs will do something about it.

    And the other comment I will make is that on the test server, a post was made by the developers stating that battles were lasting too long. The changes pretty much increased the length of all battles and the only way to fix it for a knight is to give them that second turn so they can use an ability and heal at the same time. Even lengthening the cool down time of abilities will increase battle time although I am betting it was intended to speed them up by forcing the player to attack faster but in reality it forces the player to spend more time healing at the end of the round.

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