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Thread: Thoughts on PvP

  1. #1

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    Thoughts on PvP

    I PvP casually, hopefully I'll have enough prestige to buy the bear one day, and here's my feedback.

    More than half the fights at level 30+ are against 5 stacks of griffins and a cleric nuking away while they soar. Seems that this is the dominant point-farming method. Very few players are willing to stake crystal troops in a fight, and honestly I don't blame them.

    My suggestion is to do away with battle ranks. This method using cheap griffins and forfeiting battles where they would lose to much is the only way to get ahead in rankings. Everyone gets 100% of troops back - unless they are in the top 10 of a prize league.

    So, person in 1st place would lose 100%
    2nd place would lose 90%
    3rd place loses 80%

    And so on.

    •Casual players like me won't be punished, I know I don't have the time to compete in the rankings, and now I can only do one fight a day because I lose too much at battle rank 4.
    •Adds army management strategy that's an important part of HOMM to PvP.

    Finally give the winners some real rewards. Not $15 of Hero Seals - give out unique units, hundreds of prestige points, legendary artifacts, combo shards, and more. Since they risk their troops they deserve to win big!

    Developers created good units with lots of flavor, style, and strategical uses. I'll leave it to you to decide if griffins deserve a nerf.


    Because as it stands now - PvP isn't fun and exciting, only people that can succeed with the current system are those that farm victories.

  2. #2
    Community Team BB_Eraya's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Thank you for your feedback, I hope other players will jump in to this discussion and work out a way PvP would be fun again for everyone!

  3. #3

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    As a necro mage i feel entitled to raise this topic from the dead.

    When i read the other forums i get the impression that there is consensus about two things:
    1. The game starts great but lacks endgame content
    2. The PvP system is broken (mostly due to balancing issues) and not worth your time

    Thus, creating an interesting and competitive PvP system would adress both problems this game has and while not all MMO players like PvP, my experience from similar games tell me that PvP is much more competitive than PvE and thus stimulates (paid) gear and skill optimisation efforts that could be used to fund and further improve the game.

    I would like to make a few suggestions to improve PvP while leaving PvE mostly untouched.

    General remarks to the PvP system:
    1. The arena is rather bland, a bit too small and never changes which might be considered boring after some fights. Perhaps a random arena for each fight could be considered.
    2. 2 vs 2 group PvP would be nice to have...might be an addition to the new guid system too...something like guild wars with 2 vs 2 pvp battles.

    Balancing issues
    While the might vs. magic imbalance was rather nicely adressed last patch (you do see more might heroes in PvP now), the necro vs haven imbalance remains (leaderboard clearly shows clerics to be on top). Here some ideas:

    Griffin vs Vampire
    Griffins are one of havens primary PvP unit. They are cheap and have an exzremely powerful ability: soar. Most efficient in combination with a magic skilled cleric, the hero can decimate the opposing troups while his griffins are out of reach. This is particularly strong vs necro troups, as the cleric base attack is very strong here and can easily kill an entire stack or two.
    Vampires on the other hand are of limited use vs haven because of the low light resistance and vs necro their only ability (vampiric touch) does not work.

    Suggested fix:
    1. Change cleric base attack from light damage to prime damage (similar to necro mage)
    2. Change cool down of soar from 3 rounds to 4 (in PvE this is used only once in most fights, so the change will be hardly felt)
    3. While i agree that creature usefulness should be better vs some opponents and worse vs others, the limitation to vampiric touch is overly harsh. It means that vampires have, in contrast to all other units, not a single working special ability vs half of the creatures they encounter while their haven counterpart, griffins, have TWO.
    Vampires also are the only high initiative unit necro side has, which makes their PvP weakness even worse.

    Vampire fix suggestions:
    a) remove the limitation from vampiric touch OR
    b) add another skill (e.g. stoneskin: reduces damage taken by 50% for 2 rounds, 4 rounds CD)

    Glories vs Liches
    A stack of glories can kill a stack of liches with one crit, two normal hits, a stack of liches can kill a stack of glories with 4 hits or two criticals with both sides having same might.
    Glories also have more initiative, meaning a lich gets maximum one hit in a 1 vs 1 fight. On top of that, liches not even have the same range as their crystal brothers, the archliches.

    Suggested fix:
    1. Change the range for all lich abilities from 5 to 6
    2. Change glory base attack from light damage to might

    Knight vs. Lamassu
    This is pretty even in my view, both could need some more durability to increase usefulness

    Master units
    I see seraphs slightly on top with their ability to AOE dispel all negative effects at once, higher mobility and initiative but thats a close call, spiders are good too.
    No chance needed.

    Bug report
    Night shroud is still not working porperly on creatures with uneven movement range (they move one step further than indicated).
    Night shroud and slow dont add up properly (movement range 3 divided by 2 is 1,5 minus 2 is 0...division prior to subtraction, elementary school math and night shroud comes first anyway in most cases...in game it is 3-2=1 divided by 2 is 0,1 so the creatures still move 1, the same as with slow only)

    I would like to hear some feedback and other views on the PvP topic this time

  4. #4
    Vishar's Avatar
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    one suggestion about Griffins: block option to wait if there are in shy (soar active) so they have to attack in beginning of next round after using soar

  5. #5
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    I agree on 2on2 and changing arena idea, those ideas are around quite some time.

    But jeez.
    Yet another post about necro vs heaven units?
    You DO realize that comparing unit vs unit is kinda one dimensional? And sometimes your analysis lacks the experience of combat dynamics.

    Imo necro units are slightly better because they have better synergy with each other AND their heroes (+are also easier to heal up)
    All Heaven units except Glories and Marksmen have to expose themselves to close combat, while being extremely hard to heal up.
    Due to new/better range of Necro units even Glories (and Marksmen who are hardly used anyway) are more exposed, also they cant blind as much anymore.
    And there are direct hero dark dmg spells to deal with glories.

    Also while Glories deal good dmg vs undead units, they suck vs units with light resistence, making it somewhat of a gamble to decide how many i take the random pvp match. (Same with cleric light dmg. While its good vs undead, it sucks vs light resistance units, so its not just good for them)
    Necro units with their prime dmg dont have this problem. Its easier to find an all-around army with necro than with heaven, because their units have more multi-use purposes.


    Lets be honest. The only real problem is a cleric with high magic abilities and griffins.
    A heaven might hero is by FAR the weakest in this patch, because for him all (heaven) units are like kamikazee bombers except glories, but Glories can be dealt with easily in this patch. Griffins are only uselful to gain some time. Now that they cant move for 2rounds after soar makes them absolutely useless for heaven might.

    All in all Nekro Units ARE slightly better. But this "problem" is so small that it doesnt deserve 2 Threads and another discussion here in my opinion. If anything heaven might hero needs a discussion how to help him to catch up a bit.

  6. #6

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    There is exactly ONE necro mage dark damage spell (curse) and that has a 4 round cool down. Arony can be dispelled and was recently nerfed to a two round cool down...so what "hero dark dmg spells" are you talking about?

    I also disagree with both the "necro are slightly better" and the "better synergy". A group of seraphs is completely un-CC-able no matter what you do and the exposure you talk about (means melee range attack) is in pvp sometimes even preferable as on a small map you can corner ranged opponents forcing them to use their very weak melee attack or just defend.
    I gave some examples why necro are not better, which of them do you disagree with? Vampire? Lich lacking the range of archlichs? (should normal glories have less mobility than golden glories?)

    Your remark about glories sounds like you completely agree to change their base attack to might damage, thanks.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishar View Post
    one suggestion about Griffins: block option to wait if there are in shy (soar active) so they have to attack in beginning of next round after using soar
    That would work in pvp, true, but it would also affect pve usefulness of griffins heavily as having two consecutive turns in the back of the enemy is the whole point of soar in pve.

  8. #8
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    ->Agony does instant dmg upon cast
    ->If you play correctly you can land direct dmg + the agony follow up dmg without the cleric being able to dispel it (every 2nd round; and if the cleric is dumb enough you can do that every round)
    ->Agony skill + Agony scroll can be alternated every round and hurt Glories quite a bit.
    ->Then you have curse.

    As i said "there are direct hero dark dmg spells to deal with glories." My statement holds true. If you somehow expect or want an overpowered spell that instant kills Glory-Stacks you will be disappointed. Using the current spells correctly hurts glories quite a lot, if you dont see this, there is no point in discussing much further.


    You can disagree, i dont have a problem with people saying heaven units are slightly better, but the current crying how Overpowered necro or heaven is, is just ridiculous. Neither side is flat-out OP.


    My problem with your examples is that you focus on single units without context and all your suggestions ONLY benefit necro units, thus not searching for real balance, but only to give yourself an easier time.

    Vampires got a similar nerf like Radiant Glories, and i guess you know who was hurt more by this nerf. I still agree this nerf was necessary because Radiant Glories simply were too powerful. Both sides got nerfed and still need tweaking. Im FAR from saying everything is perfectly balanced, but there are also nerfes which applied on both side which you dont even compare or look at because you compare vampires to griffins...
    Lets see exactly what you did you in your example. You compared vampires against griffins in combination with cleric specialiased on Magic. Wow!! Thats an abuseable strategy, and deriving from this that vampires are hardcore underpowered is just nonesense. You could prove that any unit is underpowered with this method, because this is currently the dominating "strategy".

    If we compare Vampires against Heaven Might Hero + Griffins and we use your method, we now can state griffins are too weak because vampires "suddenly" win. You see that those statements in both cases contradict each other and we cant derive anything from that?

    Dont you see that your way of comparing single things is just not good if we talk about balance? You simply cant do this in games with assymetric gameplay..


    Same goes for Liches/Glories. You compare hard counters and assume they can freely attack each other while ignoring other factors.

    I agree with you this game needs a lot more tweaking, but i dont agree that a side is flat-out stronger than the other and i dont agree with your method at simply looking at narrow cases and deriving from that what is too strong and what is too weak. Thats just too simple and inaccurate.
    Also i dont agree on Glories their attck-type changed to might, because it would make the game even more symmetric and boring. I only stated that not everything which you think is OP about glories, is good in every case, dont overinterpret it. Glories usage got narrowed down over the last patches and are a very specialised unit. I got the feeling heaven units are more specialised and need more customization when facing different armies. I got a slight feeling that necro units all in all are a bit more versatile and can easier be used in the same constellation against different armies. In PvP when the enemy is random a more versatile army has advantages. Thats where i derive my opinion from. You can disagree if you like, but crying that one side is way too strong is just an overreaction..

  9. #9

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    First of all, i dont cry. I made some suggestions based on examples. I do agree that those examples do not reflect the entire synergies between all possible troop setups and never claimed that.
    Come down from your high horse of superior knowledge and stop trivializing other opinions as "crying" and we might get a fact based discussion.

    A scroll (agony) and a two round cooldown ability (agony) that you need to skill (open for everyone) are in my opinion not a sufficient counter to a base light damage attack and several other light damage abilities a cleric has.

    Comparing a second special ability like blind of radiant glories (i agree that nerf was necessesary) to vampiric touch is also a bit far fetched and i repeat: there is not a single other unit with NO working special ability vs some opponents like vampires now. Thats not just a comparison with griffins like you seem to have gotten it.

    You dont mention the range of liches so maybe you agree to that, i dont know, its also not derrived from a simple comparison with glories.

    Balance means to have an approximately even chance of winning, so yes, i will ask for necro benefits when i think they have a disadvantage. I refuse your claim i would just ask to strenghten necro and nerf haven. The change for glories would be beneficial for them in various scenarios for example.

    On one side you say necro troops are more versatile and thus stronger, on the other you dont want glories to be more versatile (light damage changed to might) because it "would be boring", i see.

    Did you fight with a knight with 6 griffins vs. a necro mage with 5 vampires? I am asking because i dont like assumptions that are not based on facts.

    I appreciate your contribution to this topic, lets hear your own suggestions to improve pvp.

  10. #10
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    If i were on a high horse and wanted to trivialize stuff id say "sh*t up noob, your examples are sh*t and stop crying", but i didnt. You want a fact based discussion and imply that my label "crying" disrupts it because you think i trivialize other opinions. Truth is i discussed your points in a serious manner based on my ideas and arguments. I never tried to disprove any of your arguments with "stop crying". I dont trivialize anything here. Its just you overemphasizing a mere label i used: "crying" and you think i undervalue your opinion.

    In the current patch saying one side is WAY TOO STRONG is crying in my opinion, yes, thats a negative co-notated label. But that doesnt mean that i dont take arguments seriously or instantly think everything is bullsh*t that a person says with such an opinion.

    Agony+Curse:
    We started this part of the discussion about if there is direct dark damage to deal with glories. There is, it hurts them quite a lot.
    Now whats your problem here? Its not enough dmg to counter Glories+Cleric dmg output? You realize you move onto another topic?
    I could follow up with but necros have xy which is good and we would go on for ages.

    If you think both agony spells + curse are not enough dmg and think Glorys are still that good, fine. But dont get all angry again if other people dont take you for serious.

    Comparision blind/vampiric touch:
    Dont know if we talk about the same here or have a fundamental missunderstanding here. But blind does NOT work against undead units just like vampiric touch.
    My point was that, vampires got nerfed and glorys got nerfed. When you compare vampires with griffins now and say "vampires dont have a functional 2nd ability most of the time while griffins do" you simply miss out that the counterpart of that nerf went to glories and not to griffins.

    Liches:
    Basically i dont like that pvp is designed that you have to rely on your economy and thus non-crystal units. I dont really mind having liches the same attack range like archliches, but i think your comparision that normal glories should have less movement range than radiant glories to deal with this issue is again not the right way to think. Glories are NOT "anti-liches" and should be balanced separatly.

    Balance/Glories Might attack:
    Yea in some scenerios glories would benefit but in most they wouldnt and dont deny that your idea was mostly aimed at pvp vs nekro units ;-)
    So for nekros this would be a huge buff.
    In those most scenarios where glories could benefit, we can easily take seraphs with us.
    So actually you are pretty much only asking for buffs to necro/nerf for heaven.

    Glory versatility:
    Well call me insane but i dont want every unit to be the same?!
    Assymetric game play is about different styles. Whats the fun in having xxxx clone warriors? Yea true glorys would be more versatile if you could use them against heaven and necro at the same effect, BUT maybe thats not the fun i want, we had a stage where glories where just fine against everything and it was changed for good reason. Just because i say more versatility is stronger against a lot of random enemies, doesnt mean its more fun, because then you'll end up with the same constellation for every match which is just boring. I think specialization is the way to go to make strategy games more fun, but the current pvp system is just not suited for hard counters and rewards static all-around armies/strategys too much!
    "You see" now?


    Might Heaven 6 Griffins vs 5 Vampires Nekromage:
    I doubt anyone had this match up, but im pretty sure nekromage will win out, alone because of the multiple heals. If you dont trust me ask other players. ;-)

    My suggestions on PvP:
    I made a lot of suggestions for PvP here and in german forums, but mostly to make a fair environment for everyone (everyone should be able to create and re-edit a lvl 30 hero freely and get to choose from the same unit/item-pools etc). If you read some threads you might find my suggestions.
    When you have this environment you have more data and better comparison to what is OP and what is not and can act and balance accordingly.

    If you would lay a gun on my chest and say "tell me some unit changes that are needed right now" id say change lamassus/knights because they are severely underused.

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