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Thread: Heaven Knight no skills

  1. #71

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    My suggestion would be pretty simple, but imo very effective to balance things a bit.

    Inspired Assault duration: 2 rounds

    Thought-process:
    - it would balance out might vs magic: 1 round every 2 rounds they're no longer required to cast a shout
    - it would balance haven vs necro: Inspired assault is much more useful for haven then for necro if you ask me

    Sincerely,
    Mordyvall

  2. #72
    Community Team BB_Whargrin's Avatar
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    Hello,

    a lot of constructive and nice ideas, keep it up! I will forward all of them.

    Edit: Since we are always interested in your opinion:

    If you could add ONE skill/ability to your hero: What would it do? Why would you want to add it? What are the benefits and risks?
    If you could replace ONE skill/ability from your hero: Which one would it be? Why would you want to get rid off it? What would be it's replacement?
    If you could remove ONE skill/ability from the other heroes: Which one would it be? Why would you want to remove it and what do you think are the benefits and risks if the skill/ability will be removed?

    Please also add your hero class (so we can see from what pov you look at it)

    I'm curious what nice ideas and changes you will come up with.


    Best regards,
    BB_Whargrin
    Last edited by BB_Whargrin; 15.06.15 at 12:02.

  3. #73

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    Best advice: dump the might hero and make a cleric from scratch. It is way worth it - most op hero in game. 1 or 2 skills will change nothing

  4. #74

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    In "warfare ability school" for might heroes:

    1. "Intimidation" is a crowd control ability, move it up from third row to second row so that it follows "Taunt", which is also crowd control ability. Leave it as a tier IV ability as it is.
    1.1 In free space where "Intimidation" was, add a new tier IV ability so that it follows "Reinforcement" ability.
    1.2 New ability should be called "Regroup". It would allow might heroes to regroup (merge) 2 normal stacks into 1 strong stack. e.g. 23 + 23 champion creatures would become 1 stack of 46 creatures. Only stacks of the same type could be regrouped.
    1.3. The story behind it would be that the leadership of might heroes allows them to regroup their forces. Normally they wouldn't be able to do so because, as the game description says: "The number of elite and champion troops we can bring to battle is smaller than number of core creatures because they're harder to control as an army". Army stacks being of same type would also make it easier because of the "bonds" they share being the same type.
    1.4. The ability could be used only once, same as reinforcement.
    1.5. Player would be able to cast reinforcement and warlord's command on the regrouped stack normally.
    1.6. The benefit of it is that there would finally be difference in the relevance of warlord's command and reinforcement for might heroes in comparison to magic heroes. That is important because as the game stands now, magic hero has more benefits from warlord's command and reinforcement despite those abilities being more natural to might heroes; because magic heroes have more turns to cast warlord's command (ability + scroll) and higher bonus from reinforcement because of higher heroic support.
    1.7. Two other benefits for might hero would be a faster PvE game which is very important - to distinguish mage heroes as more of control heroes, and might heroes as more of speed heroes. The other benefit would be that it would be something truly new to the game which would make it even more attractive to new players and would reawaken interest of old players a bit.
    1.8. The first type of risk is the risk for might hero himself. Despite being great for PvE, it would make it more easy for mage heroes to crowd control might heroes, because there would be 5 instead of 6 enemy stacks. The might hero would have to choose his tactic and timing carefully.
    1.9. The second type of risk is the risk of exploit. I've tried to think of some, but none comes to mind. If it were an opposite ability, which divides all stacks into half (6 stacks into 12) for slower play but more crowd control (esp. if Blazing glories with Blindness ability), there would be more to think about.

  5. #75

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    Note: I've played all four classes extensively and know them thoroughly

    The other step to take is to introduce new tab in ability screen:

    2. In that new tab (which could be called "Scouting", both might and magic heroes could prepare in advance, i.e. before the battle even begins, depending on the opponent they will face
    2.1. For might heroes in the "Scouting" tab there would be a new option under the name "Strategic preference"/"Strategy"/"Strategics"/etc.
    2.2. "Strategics" would allow might heroes to choose any of the four existing shouts ("Rush"; "Inspired assault"; "Raise shields"/"Long range") to be active during the entire fight. e.g. If a might hero selected "Inspired assault" for the fight against high initiative monsters, he would successfully minimize his disadvantage; on the other hand if a might hero selected "Rush" for the fight against many ranged monsters, he would also successfully minimize his disadvantage in a whole different way.
    2.3. "Strategic shout" could be dispelled only if a might hero cast another shout during the fight, but only for that round. After that round, "Strategic shout" would be back.
    2.4. For magic heroes in the "Scouting" tab there would be a new option under the name "Providence"/"Providence of faith"/etc.
    2.5. "Providence" would allow magic heroes to prepare in a way of choosing any skill, and the cost of that skill would be 0 during the whole next fight. e.g. choosing "Sunburst/Curse of the netherworld" against enemies with low resistance against light/against bosses which deal AOE damage (since "Curse" is heal ability as well) would be optimal, while choosing "Soul mark" would be optimal in most other cases since its usually cast every round.
    2.6. There would be no reason to limit the effect of "Providence" only on lower tier abilities since the most mana cost-effective choice (or close to it) would be a lower tier ability which can be cast every round.
    2.7. The benefit of this novelty would be a whole new battle aspect to think about - the battle before battle. It would also correspond to the mechanics of the game where we as heroes can see opponent without fighting it, and can prepare for it. It'd also make "Enemy details license" a more important aspect of the game. Another benefit is that the optimal usage of the "Scouting" tab would depend a lot on the players' knowledge of the monster enemies and their characteristics, which would make players (feel) even more connected to the game.
    2.8. Another benefit is that concerning the balance of might and magic heroes. Might heroes would make yet another step to being competitive against magic heroes. In PvP, basically, they could choose to forgo using other shouts in fight and thus virtually gaining another turn in exchange for sacrificing optimal choice of play. e.g. using Celestials with "Inspired assault" as a choice for "Strategic shout" since they have high movement already; or using Fate spinners with "Rush" as a choice for "Strategic shout" since they're very slow, especially when faced against flying enemy and crowd control abilities. In PvE, instead of picking "Shrine of divine initiative" whenever entering a high BP fight, they could finally rest more easy and enter fights more naturally.
    2.9. Projected risks are linked to the fact that the benefit of the "Scouting tab" for both might and magic heroes lasts till the end of the fight. However that should not be a problem since might heroes are still bound to use other shouts during the fight (e.g. "Long range" or "Rush" at the beginning of a fight; or to catch up with enemy on the other side of arena while otherwise having edge in initiative with "Strategic Inspired Assault"; or to gain upper hand with initiative after closing in on enemy with "Strategic Rush"; etc.), while magic heroes are benefiting from it, but not enormously considering the cooldown duration of high tier abilities.

    This proposal would add a bit of diversity to fights which are very often talked about as lacking the former.

  6. #76
    Community Team BB_Whargrin's Avatar
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    Hello,

    that's what i call constructive feedback! Thank you very much, I'll forward it as soon as possible.


    Best regards,
    BB_Whargrin

  7. #77
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    Hello all, and sorry my english

    I think that it is possible to play without major problems with Heaven Knights, but in low levels it is much more difficult, or when it is in short scenarios with close enemies, as well as the incursions and the expeditions, In this case it is also difficult even for Dragon Knights too.

    I believe that Heaven Knights need at least two or three skills that contain large number of enemies and then take advantage of them, in the case of the Death Knight, they have Torpor to contain the spread of the strongest enemy unit, Inspired Assault to take advantage of the initiative about fast enemies, Intimidation to contain the closest basic enemy and Desolation (mass, passive), which provides an advantage in the battle to defeat enemy troops.

    But on the other hand the Heaven Knight has only the Inspired Assault skill to take advantage of the initiative and Intimidation, is too little to contain huge troops and that are too close or too small scenarios, I would suggest that as the Death Knight, the Heaven Knight It could also have three skills, perhaps Blindness or Pacification (or something that gives advantage over any enemy troops) and some Passive Skill as Mass Heroism or Passive Defiance, or AoE Heal, because currently the mana cost of the skills are very high, to use two them the mana of the Heaven Knights is over and if you aren't potions to recover, the battle becomes almost impossible to get out with little losses.

    And before anyone comment on the fact that the Heaven Troops are superior enough to just observe that the dead creatures get more healing with passive skill Raise Dead.

    The Glories can blind living, but the power attack of Liches is higher than the Glories and they are ranged troops, Glories are melee troops, the healing of the spectres has effect on area and the two Necropolis classes have help skill like Life Drain.

  8. #78

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    Below are my comments on skills I would like to see added, replaced or removed. I have tried to draw on past heroes games (mainly H6 since it had well balanced classes and some from H5) for any new skills I have proposed. I also tried to keep them simple enough and not make the game any more complicated or convoluted than it has to be due to the wide range of different ages and personalities playing the game although some suggestions might not be the easiest to program.

    My suggested skill deletion options for all classes:
    - Pursuit (Offence).
    My suggested Skill deletion options for Knight / Death Knight:
    - Raise Shields (Defence).
    Skill deletion option for Necromancer only:
    - Reap Magic (Prime).
    My preference would be to delete Pursuit from all heroes since I do not believe it is a very useful ability for either PvP or PvE and it is common to all heroes. The risk of removing it is that it COULD be a useful ability to have for specific raid / expedition battles where you are against all ranged units. It could also be useful in PvP if you were against an opponent with a lot of ranged units but with the current PvP system, this is highly unlikely. The other drawback to using the pursuit skill is that players would probably want to reset abilities to get their preferred build back.
    The same can be said for Raise Shields however the Knight has the option for entrench which provides the same amount of resistance to all stats albeit with an initiative debuff. Entrench is a better option because it is very good for Defence battles.

    Replacement options for Pursuit (Offence):
    Ambush (Offence): A new shout based ability that raises initiative of all friendly troops by +2. It would cost no mana and would have the same restriction as all other shouts with only one being active at a time per hero. It would have a duration of 1 round with a cool down of 2 rounds.

    I would see this ability as being very useful to a necromancer in the first round since it would give ranged units a chance to act before the enemy thus doing more damage before they get into a defensive stance but would not be as useful until near the end of the battle when the enemy is within striking distance of the ranged units (which in that case, rush which is also a shout may be a better option to get the ranged units out of range of the attacking melee units). For clerics, it would not be as useful in the first round but would be very useful if used the round after stasis is used. Both mage classes have some excellent abilities and this ability may be more useful early to mid-game and then some players may want to have access to stronger skills at level 30 and would maybe need to reset their skill tree to do so which would mean the next opportunity to get it back would be at DK level 25. I don’t see this ability being as useful for the knights because inspired assault is a greatly improved version of it but with it, a knight could chose to play a more aggressive playstyle after all the more times you attack first, less enemies will be able to reach you. It would be a tough decision to use with death knight as well since long shot is a very nice ability but for the death knights that prefer an all vampire lord army, it might offer some more flexibility.
    Flawless Assault (Offence): The target stack deals maximum damage on both attack and retaliation for the duration of this ability but suffers -2 to initiative. Maybe this could have a duration of 2 rounds and a cool down of either 3 or 4 rounds with the same mana cost as Pursuit.

    This may not seem like that great of an ability but you could easily have two rounds in a row that deal close to minimum damage which is where this ability would shine. The risk is that it decreases initiative because the stack needs time to plan for the “perfect” attack.

    Replacement option for Raise Shields:
    Pre-Emptive Defence (Defence): This would be a passive ability where the first friendly stack to destroy an enemy stack in each round would automatically enter a defensive stance (+40% resistance and enemy troops can only move 1 hex past this stack).
    I really liked the Cleave ability that was in Heroes 6 so I came up with a thought as to how to incorporate it into this game with a defensive twist. The theory behind it is that the first friendly stack to destroy an enemy stack has a chance to get into a defensive position to protect the ground gained during the battle. This ability would be extremely useful for tanks if they are able to get the first kill. If it ends up being a strike and return or ranged unit that gets the first kill, the ability would be sort of wasted on them.

    Replacement Options for Reap Magic:
    Reap Magic (Prime): I would keep the same name, mana cost, duration and cool down but change the ability completely. I believe this ability should increase the duration of all buffs and decrease the duration of all debuffs on a friendly stack by 1 round / active round and have the opposite effect on enemy stacks. This may be tricky when it comes to Bell though as you would not want the timer to increase but rather you want it to decrease. The same goes for an ability like soul mark, it wouldn’t have any effect on that ability. This would be a nice ability since it could be used to increase slow or night shroud durations on a single target which gives just that extra little bit of crowd control.

    New Abilities:

    I tried to make all of these new abilities as Tier V abilities with two other skills as prerequisites so that it would require careful planning if a player wanted to have all 4 Tier V abilities at Dragon Knight level 50. I have tried to make the abilities match among the classes however I have given the haven knight a stronger ability since they are currently the weakest class in the game.

    Cleaving Assault (Tier V Warfare): This would be an active ability available to the haven knight where any friendly stack to destroy an enemy stack would automatically gain an extra attack immediately following their turn with an increased damage and resistance starting at a base value of 8% modified by the hero’s magic. This ability would have a significant mana cost with a duration of 2 rounds and a cool down of 5 rounds. One risk to this ability is that if you have a turn based buff on the creature, the buff will expire more quickly. The other risk is that the duration is fairly short while the cool down is long and it may take a few rounds before it can be used at peak efficiency. This ability should also have defiance as a prerequisite.

    Terrifying Presence (Tier V in Necromancy): This would be an active ability available to the death knight which would grant a friendly target with the Terror ability as well as instilling enough fear into adjacent enemies in a 2 hex radius that they cannot retaliate against any melee attacks from other friendly creatures. This ability would have a significant mana cost with a duration of 2 rounds and a cool down of 5 rounds. The risk of this ability is that adjacent troops may still be able to move away to avoid the aura. This ability should also have life drain as a prerequisite.

    Fog of War (Tier V in Darkness) or Incorporeal Form (Tier V in Necromancy): This would be an active ability affected by heroic support available to the necromancer which would grant a friendly target with a ‘X’ % damage reduction to melee or ranged attacks and ‘X/2’% damage from magical attacks with X being similar to the percentage used for the block ability but would not negate the retaliation of the friendly unit and would have a chance based on the hero’s luck to fully negate any attack made on the unit. This would be because an aura of fog is created around the friendly unit concealing its location thus making it harder for the enemy to damage that unit and at the same time, the fog can mirror false ghostly images of that friendly unit which with some luck, the enemy unit may attack only the false ghostly images thus doing no damage. This ability would have a significant mana cost with a duration of 3 rounds and a cool down of 4 to 5 rounds. The risk of this ability is that it may not be as useful for an army consisting of only ranged units but it could come in handy as a last ditch effort to save a stack that is within range of enemy melee troops. It could also be very effectively used with any tank unit or any melee unit. An ability like this may promote the use of more melee creatures with necromancers. This ability would also have a drawback since it would not be as effective at protecting the friendly stack against magical attacks. So to be clear, if the friendly stack was hit with a magical attack and luck kicked in, the magical attack damage would be reduced to 50% (since X=100% with a lucky save). The prerequisite for Darkness would be weakness and the prerequisite for Necromancy would be reanimate elite. The reason is that weakness is tied into the damage resistance and reanimate is tied into being a master of the undead such that they can temporarily give units incorporeal form.

    Celestial Shield (Tier V in Light): This would be an active ability affected by heroic support available to the cleric which would grant any friendly unit (core, elite and champion) a shield similar to radiant armour since it would soak up damage and would also have a chance based on the hero’s luck to protect the unit from any harmful effects cast on the unit while in effect. This ability would have a significant mana cost with a duration of 3 rounds and a cool down of 5 rounds. The risk of this ability is that the target could still be affected by negative effects and may not last for the full duration of 3 rounds based on the damage received. This ability should have Invigorating Light as a prerequisite.

    General Thoughts on Class Balancing:
    And of course I have played all 4 classes. In my opinion cleric is where the bar for all other hero classes should be. They require very little tweaking or changing at this point.

    I believe reducing the cool down time on Torpor to 2 or 3 turns (my preference is 2 to match blind) would pretty much balance the necromancer with the cleric and it would help give a bit more crowd control to the death knight.

    I also believe that mighty strike needs to be slightly changed to have a stunning effect with a duration of 2 rounds and cool down of 4 rounds. This would give some much needed crowd control to both knight classes and is a better ability than pacify as the target stack cannot enter a defensive stance once their turn is done.

    The haven knight Tier V abilities need some tweaking. If heroism is to remain a single target ability, then preemptive strike should be a passive ability. I would love this for PvE but feel it would make them too strong in PvP. If heroism is made to be like desolation, than preemptive strike is fine the way it is (well maybe the mana cost is a bit on the high side). If heroism is to remain a single target ability, it should really increase creature light damage as well and should just provide the target with a 100% chance to perform a critical hit for its duration. I know a lot of players want area healing but I believe if preemptive was passive and heroism gave maximum luck as well as increasing light damage, that increase in damage would outweigh the need for healing. I also know that there will be no major changes to the haven knight anytime soon.

    By the way I noticed that defiance has been changed and it is very tempting to spend my last ability point on it. I have been testing out the scrolls and that ability is now very nice since it was the first time I have ever had a stack with 90% + resistance and 20k attack however short lived it was. It was a pretty good ability before but now it is even better.

  9. #79
    Community Team BB_Whargrin's Avatar
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    Hello,

    very nice feedback so far. Don't stop to post more, please. I read through every posting and forward your suggestions.

    Hint: there is also a thread about the very first 1-7 levels ingame! It would be great if you would participate there as well (if you haven't already). You can find it here: CLICK!


    Best regards,
    BB_Whargrin

  10. #80

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    I m missing in this game special abilities like here http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com...bilities.shtml

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