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Thread: Heaven Knight no skills

  1. #11

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    I'm glad we are on the same page, guys, and good to know Math has not been forgotten.

    Regarding life drain, which 50% life steal, knight has to have a similar advantage.

    Two options: either make reinforcement applicable again every other round _for knight class only_, or have another spell called "Proliferation" (name is not important, you got the idea). Maybe make it 10% reinf every turn, instead of the usual 5%. Bottom line, knight needs a passive heal. Perhaps make regeneration a regular spell, instead of "seals-only", see if it helps. So knight will have "heal all" + "regeneration" to start.

    To recap, necro life drain at 50% is very powerful. I've seen a stack of faceless heal themselves from half to full by simply doing one hit. Speaking of which, there has to more ways to enjoy the game. I.e. not everyone recruits faceless and uses mind pierce. Modifiers like 100% critical chance mentioned earlier are good ideas. Makes sun cavaliers useful on higher tier.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by aginco View Post
    I would like life drain draining health when retailating.

    I would like to see difference between spells lasting 2 turns and spells lasting 2 creature attack turns.
    I would also like life drain to work on retaliation and I forgot all about the difference between turn based and round based abilities. This needs to be a lot clearer in the ability descriptions as an ability that is based on the creatures turn is way different than a round based ability. Sanctuary is a turn based ability, after 2 turns with the affected creature, it is no longer active. Something like rush is round based and even after the creatures turn is up in the round, rush is still active on the target yet both abilities use the terminology of "round" for duration.
    Chromatic

  3. #13

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    Both haven knights and clerics need a way to heal elites or champions so whether that is by changing heal to affect any creature tier or adding a haven version of life drain to them makes no difference to me. The big problem with healing is that the haven side needs a creature with AOE healing available as a standard unit. I rarely use heal core and it is usually only used when I take out marksmen or soul redeemers for a spin. I used to use it on a regular basis when I used inquisitors for healing them but now that I have access to elders, inquisitors are just taking up space in my garrisons.

    Also lets be honest here, when you are doing a high level battle, be it a Tier 13 battle, a high level raid battle or a high level expedition battle (say 300k+ bp), if you get hit by a big enough enemy stack, your stack will be killed in a single hit. There is no amount of healing in the world that will get that stack back and if you are in a coop battle, you can't even retry the battle to try and save it.

    Ok now we have to talk about the math of it all. Many players talk about “the math” but haven’t even done a single calculation. Might bonuses in this game are cumulative and most importantly, it is cumulative for ALL hero classes. This puts them on the same playing field. The creature bonuses from artefacts provide a very minimal increase in damage because it is a small percentage of the cumulative total. If artefact bonuses were changed from cumulative to factored, it wouldn't really change much as it would provide a slightly bigger boost in attack to the specified troop type BUT it would affect ALL hero classes thus keeping them balanced. Unfortunately, abilities like inspired assault and defiance cannot be factored as it would completely unbalance the existing classes and would overpower knight classes in PvP. That is the problem with making these abilities be factored as opposed to cumulative as they are now. Essentially, this could be done but the abilities would need to provide a lower bonus percentage to ensure there is still balance between the classes. So either you keep the system the way it is or change it to work differently yet give the same result because it needs to have the same result to maintain balance in the game. Now for the math so we can look at REAL numbers. I have taken these stats from my character in game with no shrines or runes on. I know that mage classes can get roughly the same might so I have assumed the mage class to be equal in this regard (meaning they have the dice on).

    At 4k might with 2.2k magic and having a creature with a base attack of 4000:

    Might bonus - 220%
    Inspired Assault bonus - 46%
    Defiance bonus - 15%

    1. Might class damage for a single stack = 4000 * 69/69 * (100% + 220%) = 12,800

    2. Might class damage for a single stack using cumulative effects for Inspired & Defiance = 4000 * 69/69 * (100% + 220% + 46% + 15%) = 15,240

    3. Might class damage for a single stack using factored effects for Inspired & Defiance = 4000 * (100% + 220%) * (100% + 46%) * (100% + 15%) = 4000 * 3.2 * 1.46 * 1.15 = 21,491

    4. Mage class damage for a single stack with the same might = 4000 * 60/69 * (100% + 220%) = 11,130

    5. With the extra stack size using the cumulative method with no inspired or defiance, knights have 15% more damage than the mage class on the same creature stack.

    6. With cumulative effects for inspired and defiance, that difference becomes 37%.

    7. With factored effects for inspired and defiance, that difference becomes 93%, almost twice as strong.

    And these calculations are just looking at a single stack, knights gain an extra stack so if each class had all of the same stacks, you could multiply everything by 1.2 (6 / 5 stack ratio) on top of the numbers listed above.

    Now in the above calculations, I didn't have the Mask of Death's Chill or the Ferryman's Oar equipped. If I equip those items, my might increases by roughly 800 increasing the creature bonus to 265%. And remember, these two might based items are only available for use by the knight class so this is yet again another advantage. I don't really advocate wearing these items all the time because I find a full might build is only useful in specific situations when doing solo battles but they do make a significant difference when comparing a knight to a mage. The following are the new numbers for the above calculations using the mask of deaths chill and ferryman's oar which lower inspired assault to 23% and defiance to 10%:

    1. 14,600 (vs. 12,800)
    2. 15,920 (vs. 15,240)
    3. 19,754 (vs. 21,491)
    4. 11,130 (no change)
    5. 31% (vs. 15%)
    6. 43% (vs. 37%)
    7. 77.5% (vs. 93%)

    Again, those numbers do not account for the extra stack present in the knights army.

    At first, I thought the factored method would really overpower the knight class but it doesn’t seem to be all that much when compared to the full might build. I don’t really know what the appropriate balance should be, should a knight be twice as strong as a mage or only 50% stronger. That is up to the devs to figure out but I don’t see much of a gain by going to a factored bonus especially seeing how the devs will just re-adjust bonuses to suit their goal of how much stronger they believe the might class should be damage wise. Asking for a change to this is not realistic and this would greatly overpower the knight classes in a PvE environment when using Drifting Faceless to control enemy stacks.

    I should also point out that I did not include added bonuses from reinforcement stack size or soul mark into the calculations but these factors also play a part in the equation. A death knights damage would also be a bit lower because they don't have defiance but they do have desolation which helps to counter this. I just tried to simplify it a little bit.
    Chromatic

  4. #14

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    gravel made really point knight is too strong and dev need reduce the power and skills.
    proposion is that definace be pasive skill same like desolation (depend from magic and killed stacks) so how be over powered if u have that already in game with DK + reinf all stack with PB.
    funny

  5. #15

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    I am not saying they are too strong because the strength of the mages is crowd control and those extra two turns. If you can't attack them, it doesn't matter if you have 100k damage or 1,000,0000 damage, it isn't really a threat. The threat comes when they run out of cc and you can hit them, then it will hurt.

    I do kind of wish, resistances were a bit more in depth and gave a chance to completely resist a spell being cast on the target by another hero (not sure if it should apply to enemy creatures though). So for example there is a chance to resist any spell cast from the Prime School of magic such as dispel, soul mark, stasis, slow, etc which would be based on the creatures prime magic resistance. This way it would not be able to apply to something like desolation which is not really based on any school of magic.
    Chromatic

  6. #16

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    @Gravel - there is nothing wrong with knight dealing double damage compared to the same level cleric hero. That's the whole point of being a might hero.
    I still think a cleric would win in PvP, because of the 4 spells per turn you mentioned. But the current PvP is screwed anyway, so point in balancing that before PvE is fixed.

  7. #17
    WhiteRabbit's Avatar
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    I have to admit, well used crowd control is more powerful tool, that any might in the world.
    I comfortably fight undead battles with my cleric, no matter they are 100k bp, 200k or 20000000 (never fought last one though, i assume it will be long fight:P)
    You can fight every might fight with mage, you can fight living battle with 2 stacks of faceless and still win - I done so.
    You can fight anything, and be anything when you have cleric.
    You are only "Good for Coop" Knight when it comes to knight hero.

    Might on my Cleric is same as on my Knight hero, but there is no way I could have as much play fun on my Knight as I can have on Cleric.
    Lack of crowd control should be compensated by significant difference in might.
    We should not see 2 so different classes, standing side by side, and asking where is difference between them....

    I do think that Knight deserved to be "overpowered"
    I do believe Knight class deserved face lift finally, and I hope it will be stunning afterwards ^^

    Best Regards,

    (\ /)
    ( , , )
    o(")(") PinkRabbit on behalf of Amu_Chan, the most silly Knight in Ashan (mine )

    If You Change Nothing,
    Nothing Will Change

    PinkRabbit / x__X / Amu_Chan

  8. #18
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    I remember commenting in an old post about it, that Heaven Knigths basically serve to support his army and the allied army in cooperative combat, of course, but with the current skills only 3 basically serve as support, Inspired Assault, Preemptive Strike and Defiance.

    Defiance has reasonable mana cost, but Heroism has a high cost and therefore do not see anyone using this ability, it's almost a dead skill, unused, no need to buy it, but the fact that it is one of the ultimate skills, is just what was needed to be better, being passive and an ability that affects all allied creatures, not single target, as well as the ability Desolation of Death Knights, which previously costs 200 mana and had cooldown of 4 rounds and simply reduced some of his power to become a passive skill.

    I understand that some skill could be removed to create a new, or just trading one skill for another, because actually Heaven Knights need a skill to control enemies, the Death Knights also Necromancers has Torpor, Clerics has Blindness, Pacification and Temporal Stasis, the Heaven Knights could win the Pacification skill that would be very useful due to the fact that knights having only two rounds of hero action.

  9. #19
    Community Team BB_Eraya's Avatar
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    Hi everyone,

    I am just letting you know I am keeping an eye on this topic, and I will forward every bit of feedback to the devs.

  10. #20

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    Reinforce all your troops using Drifting Faceless together with Painful Bond (mind control the Painful Bonded stack and Reinforce), it makes death knight over knight easily.
    1 turn of hero move + 1 turn of stack move, make you have 30-40% more stacks in high-end fight.
    If knight has some skill combat as powerful as it, things will change.

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